Shotgun for Defense

Discuss the good and the bad of licencing and re-licencing your firearms

Postby Junaid » Tue, 2008-06-17 11:04

Hi Wrm,

These are some of the complexities i have been faced with. The FCA states if you have a gun licensed for occassional sport shooting, if not being used it should be stored in a safe unloaded. A reasonable assumption would be, if not used for sport shooting it should be stored in the above manner. So leaving it "stored" under your pillow loaded, would make it illegal cos you are not sport shooting in your bedroom.

All the gun dealers i have asked have told me not to carry the gun, so i assume it cannot be carried or used for anything else other than sport shooting. Far as the FCA is concerned one gun should suffice for ALL self defence scenarios, so having to motivate otherwise might be a little difficult.
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Postby wrm » Tue, 2008-06-17 14:09

Well, the fact of the matter is that you need to speak to your lawyer before speaking to the cops. And you need to comply with the strict letter of the law, not with the spirit of it. Choose your path wisely, keeping your own best interest at heart.

'nuff said.

W
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Postby jvr » Tue, 2008-06-17 16:02

wrm wrote:Hi guys

I didn't see what Shannow said before the edit, but...

The FCA explicitly states that one can use any firearm for any legal purpose. And this makes sense, of course.

What you can't do, is justify two firearms for self defence.

On the other hand, it seems easier to justify a firearm for hunting or sport shooting than for self defence. And the licence is valid for longer.

OK, I don't advocate licencing a 9mm for sport shooting and then carrying it for self defence, because interesting questions r.e. your intentions are likely to be asked "so you took your sport handgun with you to confront Mr Recently-Deceased?".

But having your wingshooting shotgun loaded and under your pillow is not illegal. Stupid, maybe, but not illegal :-)

Having said that -- I don't think a shotgun is a good home defence firearm. But that's just me, and there are situations where it could be the best choice.

W


Hi wrm,

Shannow said nothing bad or "illegal" in his post. His post just reminded me that we should not incriminate ourselves online or give the anti-gunners/gov ideas on how to further tighten laws.
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Postby jvr » Tue, 2008-06-17 16:09

But having your wingshooting shotgun loaded and under your pillow is not illegal. Stupid, maybe, but not illegal :-)


What kind of a bed pillow could possibly hide a shotgun? ;P
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Postby wrm » Wed, 2008-06-18 10:45

Junaid wrote:The FCA states if you have a gun licensed for occassional sport shooting, if not being used it should be stored in a safe unloaded.


I've been looking and I can't justify that statement from the Act and Regs.

All the gun dealers i have asked have told me not to carry the gun, so i assume it cannot be carried or used for anything else other than sport shooting.


Maybe they don't want to be called up in court "but he told me it's OK!"

As I said, you probably don't want to carry a sporting gun for self defence, and definitely not if you don't have a licenced SD firearm. But if you were to do so, I can't find the paragraph of the act or regs that you would be breaking.

BTW : Some gun dealers know what they're talking about, but a lot of them (and especially the appies manning the sales desk) have no clue. The best approach is to nod and smile. And study up on the act and regs yourself.
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Postby jvr » Wed, 2008-06-18 15:41

wrm wrote:
Junaid wrote:The FCA states if you have a gun licensed for occassional sport shooting, if not being used it should be stored in a safe unloaded.


I've been looking and I can't justify that statement from the Act and Regs.

All the gun dealers i have asked have told me not to carry the gun, so i assume it cannot be carried or used for anything else other than sport shooting.


Maybe they don't want to be called up in court "but he told me it's OK!"

As I said, you probably don't want to carry a sporting gun for self defence, and definitely not if you don't have a licenced SD firearm. But if you were to do so, I can't find the paragraph of the act or regs that you would be breaking.

BTW : Some gun dealers know what they're talking about, but a lot of them (and especially the appies manning the sales desk) have no clue. The best approach is to nod and smile. And study up on the act and regs yourself.


wrm, where does the firearms control act stand now?

As I see it, it was ammended in 2004 and currently new ammendments are being considered?

Take a look here: http://www.acts.co.za/firearms/index.htm
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Postby wrm » Wed, 2008-06-18 15:58

Last I looked the amended Act was signed into being, but it's not in force yet since they're still trying to get the amended Regulations out. And the last time I saw those they were a shambles.

Specific problem : Cap & Ball revolvers, which don't currently require a licence, will require a licence again under the amended Act.

W
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Postby Shannow » Wed, 2008-06-18 19:41

Can anyone tell me how strict the motivation requirements are for occassional hunting and sportshooting guns?

After all, if you're only going to use it occassionally, surely it is sufficient to merely say so. It's not like you're gonna use it every weekend. Are these licenses usually easily awarded? I mean, how can you prove a need for a SPECIFIC weapon, if you are only going to use it occassionally?

For example, if you request a shotgun for occassional bushpig hunting, can they say that you don't really need it, even if you only use it once in 6 months - which is still within the definition of "occassionally."
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Postby Junaid » Thu, 2008-06-19 11:25

I have not studied the FCA myself, but have been told this when i was on training for re-licensing, that according to the act a sporting handgun may not be carried for self defense and has to be stored unloaded in a safe.
This has been confirmed by the numerous dealers i have spoken to. I will have to check into the FCA when i get the time, not sure if that will ever happen.

Thanks
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Postby Martin_tu » Thu, 2008-06-19 14:40

Junaid wrote:I have not studied the FCA myself, but have been told this when i was on training for re-licensing, that according to the act a sporting handgun may not be carried for self defense and has to be stored unloaded in a safe. This has been confirmed by the numerous dealers i have spoken to. I will have to check into the FCA when i get the time, not sure if that will ever happen.
Thanks


May I be so bold as to ask you to ask the person or persons that told you this to quote the 'chapter and verse' basis of their statement please.

For the record, the Firearm Control Act states on p26 in Chapter Six, headed 'Licence to possess (sic) a firearm' subtitled; "Licence to possess a firearm for occasional hunting and sports-shooting".

Section 15 sub-section (4) "A Firearm in respect of which a licence has been issued in terms of this section may be used where it is safe to use the firearm and for a lawful purpose." Endquote.

This is precisely the same statement that is employed in the section on p24 subtitled 'Licence to possess a licence for self-defense' sect 13 sub section (4).

For both, you will find that that means Any Lawful Purpose. Self Defense, usually referred to in a court of Law as Private Defense, is (still) a lawful purpose.

As is carrying the firearm in a holster suited for the purpose and as long as the weapon is fully concealed.

Your servant in common cause.
"I'd rather have a gun and not need it than vice versa."
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Postby jvr » Thu, 2008-06-19 15:41

If anyone is uncertain about something in the act just go to

http://www.acts.co.za/firearms/index.htm

and you can very easily find what you are looking for. It's not one huge pdf file, you just click the part you want to read from a tree menu on the left.

As a sidenote, Builders Warehouse was attacked by gunmen yesterday here in BFN. They targeted the guys collecting cash.

And it might suprise you to hear that the "No Gun" stickers did not in fact keep the gunmen away from the premises! *snicker*

;)
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Postby jvr » Thu, 2008-06-19 15:46

Shannow wrote:Can anyone tell me how strict the motivation requirements are for occassional hunting and sportshooting guns?

After all, if you're only going to use it occassionally, surely it is sufficient to merely say so. It's not like you're gonna use it every weekend. Are these licenses usually easily awarded? I mean, how can you prove a need for a SPECIFIC weapon, if you are only going to use it occassionally?

For example, if you request a shotgun for occassional bushpig hunting, can they say that you don't really need it, even if you only use it once in 6 months - which is still within the definition of "occassionally."


I guess we need to get someone onto the forum that has actually applied for a new occasional hunting\sport licence to answer your question.
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Postby wrm » Fri, 2008-06-20 13:43

Junaid wrote:I have not studied the FCA myself


You should. As a firearm owner, this thing rules your life.

I was under the impression that the relicencing competency test was designed to make sure that firearm owners are familiar with the new act. You are the second person I'm talking to who has obtained the competency without knowing the law.

The other fellow believed the police when they told him he could only relicence one handgun. As I said, this was after he'd completed the test on the knowledge of the act.

I saw the stuff my mother had to work through to pass her competency, and it was quite thorough. I'm guessing there are some other trainers out there taking money in exchange for certificates without bothering the applicant with difficult stuff like studying the act?
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Postby jvr » Fri, 2008-06-20 17:09

wrm wrote:
Junaid wrote:I have not studied the FCA myself


You should. As a firearm owner, this thing rules your life.

I was under the impression that the relicencing competency test was designed to make sure that firearm owners are familiar with the new act. You are the second person I'm talking to who has obtained the competency without knowing the law.

The other fellow believed the police when they told him he could only relicence one handgun. As I said, this was after he'd completed the test on the knowledge of the act.

I saw the stuff my mother had to work through to pass her competency, and it was quite thorough. I'm guessing there are some other trainers out there taking money in exchange for certificates without bothering the applicant with difficult stuff like studying the act?


Not even the police know the law. Thats why I'm four months into an appeal for my second handgun.
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Postby GJV » Fri, 2008-06-20 20:49

Keeping non self defence firearms unloaded in a safe:

This taken from the reglations:

Chapter 10: Safe custody of firearms and ammunition
Safes and safe custody

86.(11) (a) Firearms other than those in respect of which a licence for self-defence in terms of section 13 of the Act has been issued, must be stored unloaded in accordance with these regulations.
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